查看完整版本: 多大比例处女第一次流血

多大比例处女第一次流血

感觉很多人误解一个概念即“处女膜可能在很多情况下破裂”可以推出“第一次不流血正常”。这个推理是不成立的，所以我想调查一下对于自称是处女的人第一次流血的比例是多少？

这里是在问：[size=5]你见过的处女第一次是流血还是不流血？或者你的第一次流血吗？[/size]

不要提有些或者“很多”处女不流血，1%也是很多，99%还是很多，讨论的是个例。

[size=4]如果没有接触过处女不要选择正方或者反方，这里不讨论是不是所有处女都出血。[/size]

结果有点惊讶，我感觉应该在4比1或者以上的比例，没想到现在接近3:1。以下是记录结果：

2016-08-04: 109比44，相当于29%的自称处女不流血
2016-08-05: 164比65，相当于28%的自称处女不流血
2016-08-06: 237比108，相当于31%的自称处女不流血 (是因为是周末，所以多很多人吗？)
2016-08-07: 310比162，相当于34%的自称处女不流血
2016-08-08: 350比177，相当于34%的自称处女不流血
2016-08-09: 442比215，相当于33%的自称处女不流血
2016-08-10: 492比251，相当于34%的自称处女不流血

不更新了，感觉就是3：1的比例了。

最后推荐一篇比较正常的文章吧，The European Journal of Contraception & Reproductive Health Care上2009年发表的题为《Certificates of virginity and reconstruction of the hymen》的文章。作者是杂志主编Jean-Jacques Amy写的，感觉作者还是比较正视这个问题的，不像我回复里引用的很多作者，刻意回避处女膜与初次性交的关系。文中说 Literature data concerning the frequency of bleeding at defloration are amazingly scarce，确实是相当稀有，大部分作者故意顾左右而言它，完全没有科学的精神。

[[i] 本帖最后由 nilsex 于 2016-8-10 13:42 编辑 [/i]]

处女很多第一次都不流血，因为有很多是撕裂的，不要在意

[quote]原帖由 [i]wjj2368[/i] 于 2016-8-2 18:25 发表 [url=http://www.sexinsex.net/bbs/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=119003085&ptid=6813639][img]http://www.sexinsex.net/bbs/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
处女很多第一次都不流血，因为有很多是撕裂的，不要在意 [/quote]
关心的就是很多是多少，90%的处女不流血呢，还是90%的处女流血呢？很多什么概念？

我上过的一个处女就是没有流血，过程中疼的不行，但确实没见血

*** 作者被禁止或删除 内容自动屏蔽 ***

[quote]原帖由 [i]wouwouwang[/i] 于 2016-8-4 07:37 发表 [url=http://www.sexinsex.net/bbs/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=119034233&ptid=6813639][img]http://www.sexinsex.net/bbs/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
我的第一个女友就是处女，当时不懂，第一次都没插进去，一直喊疼。
第二天总算进去了，但是做完也没觉得流血了。所以这都是因人而异的吧。
不知道群里有否医学专家给大家上上课，到底怎么回事。 [/quote]
这个问题的解释很多很多，网上也有大把的。不过是不是就很难讲了。

[quote]原帖由 [i]狐狸9904[/i] 于 2016-8-3 15:52 发表 [url=http://www.sexinsex.net/bbs/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=119021280&ptid=6813639][img]http://www.sexinsex.net/bbs/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
我上过的一个处女就是没有流血，过程中疼的不行，但确实没见血 [/quote]
没有考虑过是装出来的可能吗？有什么其他信息可以说明是处女？

Forensic Science International

提供一些学术资料：
国际法医科学上的一篇文章提及： it is impossible to have complete hymenal clefts in girls
who have not been sexually active, appearing to attribute such clefts as were found in
their subjects to undisclosed sexual intercourse.
没有性行为的情况下，处女膜完全破裂是非常罕见的（原文是不可能）。原文后面给出了三种可能的出现的非性行为下的处女膜完全破裂的情况
1. For at least some of these girls, the complete clefts could be naturally occurring.
There is some evidence for this: complete clefts have been found (although rarely) in
prepubertal girls [14,15] and large splits (whether or not they extend to the base of
the hymen not specified) have been found even in neonates [16]. It could be
hypothesised that complete clefts are more likely to develop when the hymen
oestrogenises at puberty.
2. One or more of these girls suffered a tear to her hymen from accidental injury in
early childhood [17–19].
3. Some of these complete clefts have resulted from insertion of fingers and/or objects into the vagina due to masturbation or from sexual activities with a partner that has
involved digital, although no penile, penetration. The literature records the creation of
one cleft by the accidental insertion of the finger of an examining doctor.
第一，天生的情况。文中引用了两篇文献，也说明这是非常罕见的。第二，是童年期外伤，引用了三篇文献（这些都是罕见事件）。第三，手指或者异物插入。引用了一篇医生意外插入导致破裂的情况。总之，在这篇文章中作者的观点是处女膜完全破裂基本一定是由于性行为导致。

但是同时，并不是所有宣称有性行为的女性的处女膜都完全破裂。 only 84% of girls (84 out of 100) who claimed to have had past sexual intercourse had complete clefts in their hymens. 仅84%的有性行为的女性处女膜完全破裂。作者认为可能的解释是 some of the group claiming to be sexually active were in fact still virgins (claiming to be sexually experienced under the influence of peer group pressure; boasting; adolescent ignorance about what a virgin is [21], or to be consistent with having made a false allegation of abuse).

这篇文章的观点很鲜明，处女膜破裂和性行为是直接联系的。文章引用了另外一篇文献，稍晚再讨论。

[[i] 本帖最后由 nilsex 于 2016-8-6 17:22 编辑 [/i]]

老婆出血了，但是因为前戏时间很长，被水冲的非常淡，仔细才能看出来。

the Health

今天看一篇2012年在健康杂志上关于处女膜的文章

里面有一个小节讨论处女膜破裂的问题：

The hymen may be ruptured by sexual intercourse.  The rup-
ture appears as irregular hymenal edges and narrow rims at
the point of the injury. Later on, the jagged angular margins
appear to be smoothed off. 56  However, deeper penetrating
injuries of the hymen may lead to defects in the integrity of
the hymen, situated posteriorly or posterolaterally. 15  Despite
definitive evidence of sexual contact (pregnancy), Kellogg et
al noticed only 2 of 36 examined adolescents having genital
changes that were diagnostic of penetrating trauma.

首先作者提出性交可以导致处女膜破裂。然后提到除了怀孕可以作为性接触的决定性证据外，Kellogg发现只有2/36的青少年发现有生殖器变化（作者这里规避了处女膜的内容，使用了genital changes）。可能的解释有：
Possible explanations for the lack of genital trauma include: pene-
tration does not result in visible tissue damage, or acute inju-
ries occur but heal completely.
插入可能不一定导致可见的生殖器损伤或者损伤完全恢复了。

Similarly, Onan et al reported  a  case  of  spontaneous  formation  of  imperforate  hymen during pregnancy in the absence of previous surgical proce-
dures. 59  

同时，作者引用了一个文献说明怀孕后有案例产生了无孔的处女膜。也即一个已经怀孕的女的同样可以产生新的处女膜。

In the prepubertal girl, because of the relative size of the
structures, penetration occurs through the hymenal tissue and
causes  tearing.  However,  in  the  adolescent  girl  and  adult
woman  consensual  penetration  occurs  into  the  orifice  which
thus  stretches,  resulting  in  spreading  and  indeterminate  dis-
ruption.

之后作者提到，对于幼女，由于生殖器结构大小的问题，插入会导致处女膜组织撕裂；但对于青春期女性和成年女性，在非强迫性行为下插入处女膜孔将导致扩张，因此其结果是不可预料的。（更有文献认为在非强迫性交下，处女膜是不应该破裂的，这个稍后介绍。）

Many authors agreed that the so called rupture
and bleeding of the hymen is not to be routinely expected
after  first  coitus. Other  causes  of  hymenal  rupture,
other than sexual intercourse include vaginal insertion of ob-
jects such as tampons and digits, vigorous sporting activities,
surgical procedures and falling on sharp objects.

后面作者提出，有很多作者同意处女膜破裂和出现并不是应该在第一次阴道性交发生的程式化步骤。然后作者解释了处女膜破裂的其他原因诸如卫生棉条和手指插入阴道、剧烈运动、手术、摔倒尖锐物体上。

所以，阴茎插入不应该认为可以导致处女膜破裂，而卫生棉条和手指插入却可能导致处女膜破裂。我已经不能跟随作者的思路了。不管怎么讲，就是这个意思，处女膜破裂可以在粗暴的性交、卫生棉条和手指插入、剧烈运动、手术、摔倒尖锐物体上上发生，在正常性交下不应该期望会破裂，但是也可能破裂。（至少从文章第一句，性交可能导致处女膜破裂应该可以推断出，正常性交也可以导致破裂吧？）

大家赶快去看看自己的伴侣是不是到现在处女膜还没破裂，如果破裂了是不是该反省一下自己是不是性交太粗暴了？:teeth


:teeth :teeth :teeth

British Journal of Midwifery

今天开一个英国助产师期刊上的文章，文章内容很长，以后有时间有分析。文中给了一个所谓的Myths vs truths about the hymen，在这里列出来供大家参考。

Myths and misconceptions
传说和误解
Girls are born with a covering membrane in the vagina
女孩出生会有一层膜覆盖在阴道内。
The membrane breaks during the first vaginal intercourse
那层膜会在第一次阴道性交破裂
The membrane breaks during physical activities
那层膜会因为运动而破裂
Bleeding is connected with the first vaginal intercourse
出血与第一次阴道性交有联系
Virginity can be verified by a gynaecological examination
贞操可以通过妇科检查验证

以上是文中列出的误解，也即以上观点在作者看来是站不住脚的。（注意当中包括运动会导致处女膜破裂）

‘correct’ interpretations
以上错误说法对应的“正确”描述

Generally, girls are born with an opening in the vagina—1/1000–
1/10 000 girls are born with a covering membrane, i.e. hymen
imperforate, which is an anomaly
一般而言，女孩出生是阴道有一个开口。仅有千分之一到万分之一的女孩出生会包覆一层膜，也即无孔处女膜，这是一种异常形态。

The vaginal opening becomes elastic as a girl grows, and
consensual vaginal intercourse does not rupture the vaginal
opening
那一个阴道开口会随着年龄变得有弹性，同时自愿的阴道性交不会导致阴道开口破裂。

Physical activity does not rupture the vaginal opening
运动不会导致那个阴道开口破裂。

Bleeding during first vaginal intercourse does not prove the
‘status’ of virginity but may be an indication of anomalies,
infections or forced sex
第一次阴道性交出血不能证明该人是处女，而可能说明该人解剖异常或者有感染或者被强制性交。

It is impossible to verify virginity by examining the vagina
检查阴道无法确认该人是否为处女。


可以看到虽然作者说这里列出的是Myths vs truths about the hymen关于处女膜的误解与真实情况，在真实描述中，作者刻意回避了hymen处女膜的说法，而使用The vaginal opening 那一个阴道开孔，这个有歧义的词语。也即The vaginal opening 指的是阴道口，还是处女膜上的开口。如果结合标题应该认为是后一种解释，不过这显然会导致下面列写的大部分“准确解释”和其他文献和尝试冲突。至少大部分文献认为合意性交也可以会导致处女膜破裂，而不是本文提出的不会导致The vaginal opening破裂。

这篇文章发表在British Journal of Midwifery •  February 2013 • Vol 21, 有兴趣可以去下载阅读。

BMJ VOLUME 316 7 FEBRUARY 1998

今天来看一篇被很多人引用过的我只能称之为“无稽之谈”的著名文献。这篇短文发表在英国医学期刊上，题目叫做 Education about the hymen is needed。我只能说题目是很冠冕堂皇，说得好像关于其他东西的内容就不需要教育一样，比如科学的统计方法，科学的归因方法。这篇文章被引用的如此之多并不是这个文章写得多好，而是给出了一个惊人的首次性交不出血的比例（63%）。下面是这个短文的全文，我完全不想翻译：

The celebration of a bloody sheet, vividly portrayed in
popular cinema, is based on strong religious and
cultural beliefs. The Koran states that a bride has to be
a virgin, and according to custom a woman found on
her wedding night to have been “touched” brings
shame to her family. Consequences include divorce
through to death. 1
Young women, understandably, go to great lengths
to get their hymens refashioned (hymenorraphy)
before their wedding. 1 Hymenorraphy is illegal in most
Arab countries, but it is performed unofficially; special›
ists undertake five or six procedures weekly (confiden›
tial communications). Egypt’s trade in hymen repairs,
reported last year, reduced “cleansing” murders by
80% over the previous 10 years. 1
The simplest technique of hymenorraphy, per›
formed days before a wedding, uses catgut sutures to
approximate hymen remnants (with or without incor›
poration of a gelatin capsule containing a blood›like
substance which bursts on intercourse). The definitive
procedure approximates undermined hymen rem›
nants or vaginal flaps and often produces vascular
bands across the introitus. These women may be told to
instruct their husbands that their hymen is very vascu›
lar and that he should cut it with a “sharp instrument”
before they attempt sexual intercourse.
Appearances are deceptive
In Western society hymenorraphy is legal and is
comparable with plastic surgery in ethical terms. The
concept of deception is not relevant; this operation is
done for the woman; and the principle of
confidentiality in medicine is as old as medicine itself.
But factors such as sporting activities and use of
tampons mean that bleeding with first sexual
intercourse is not inevitable in the “Western” woman
and is an unfair end point. [b]I questioned 41 women
colleagues about this: 14 (34%) bled on first
intercourse, 26 (63%) did not, and one could not
remember. Previous reports on physical examination
of hymens show that the virginal state was certain in
only 16 of 28 (57%) virgins, 2 and appearances relate to
tampon use.[/b] 3
The report of Logmans et al on 20 cases of
hymenorraphy in second generation Mediterranean
and African immigrant women in the Netherlands
exposes social issues that are of grave concern. Firstly,
the youngest woman was 16 years old, and teenage sex
in ethnic minorities is associated with a rising
incidence of sexually transmitted diseases 4–7 and
teenage pregnancy. 8 Secondly, 10 of 16 girls had been
“forced” to have sexual intercourse. Are these girls
receiving adequate sexual education, and are they
more vulnerable to sexual harassment?
Hymenorraphy is justifiable in certain circum›
stances, when the woman would otherwise suffer
disgrace or worse. More importantly, however, young
immigrant women require appropriate sexual educa›
tion and their families need to be educated about their
adherence to the “bloody sheet” theory. 8
I thank the numerous colleagues with whom I have discussed
these issues.


被诸多科普文章，特别是中文科普文章广泛引用的所谓首次性交出血率的部分我已经加粗了。（大部分引用似乎还特意强调了Sara Paterson Brown博士，不知道作者们想说什么？）这样一个完全没有科学的试验设计的，仅仅是和41个同事瞎聊的结果，冠冕堂皇的被其他科普文章当作科学事实引用（这个地方原文可以认为没有问题，引用的时候完全就是误导读者，本文作者完全没有要表达他的这个所谓统计结果是一个值得确信的科学结果，而仅仅是一个个例，文章连基本的统计信息和统计方法都没有交代，基本就是做了个简单的除法）。

有各种的原因吧，处女膜在日常不经意间破了，不一定会流血的

我上过的一个处女就是没有流血，过程中疼的不行，但确实没见血

这个因人而异，不要强求，可能之前破裂过，所以体会好就好。